Posts by La Capra

12

People to People Student Ambassador Programs -- heard of it?

by cruzanheart in

jw
friends

our daughter jennie got an invitation to take part in a people to people student ambassador program, and we're kind of curious as to what this is and how much it might cost (their website shyly avoids talking about money).

have any of you lovely people out there heard of this program?

is it legit?.

La Capra

One of my former students JUST walked in with a recommendation from People to People to fill out. I will be investigating this a lot before I recommend her. There are so many "exchange programs" that are such a scam (collect lots of money from the parents, then send the kids off to foreign countries where they don't have host families lined up....put 'em in a school that gets "stuck" with them ... etc.) I still would go with the tried and true programs: AFS and Youth for Understanding. Shoshana

13

New Case: good for WBTS

by La Capra in

in reviewing the "new news" out of the courts this morning, i came across this case: doe v. corp. of president of church of jesus christ of latter day saints: 2004 wl 1846365 utah app.,2004.

aug. 19, 2004. the church won, the basic premise was that the church owed no duty to the children to warn of a "high priest's" past sexual abuse activities.

"church did not have special relationship with church "high priest" giving rise to duty to warn of his alleged sexual abuse; "high priest" was not church agent, employee, or member of clergy, and abuse did not occur on church property or during church-sponsored activity.".

La Capra

Well, it means only one of these two things

1) Utah does not intend to protect the shenanigans of the clergy, hiding behind the shield that there was no duty owed by the Church, to protect its adherents from predators....We won't make the same mistake the Catholics made. The Catholics are losing everything.

or

2) Let's settle this once and for all, we protect the powerhouse of this state to the end, we were appointed by legislators that belong to this church, who are elected by members of this church. Let's send a message to anyone who would dare try to discredit the Church that they have no recourse in us.

I actually think it might be number one, because if it were number two, they simply would have not granted cert. However, it would have headed to the DC Supremes anyway.

Monday morning legal predictions...free of charge, this early in the morning.

Shoshana

24

JW foul play.

by avishai in

jw
friends

what instances do you know of jw crime, particularly jw on jw or jw on xjw?.

i know of several instances.

my own po, elder grandfather ripped off tons of dubs.

La Capra

My Dad, a nonJW used to allude to some illegal and unethical dealings that some of the JW men pulled on each other and nonJWs. But my father is a good guy, he would never name names or give details, because it would embarrass the people who got scammed. Even when I was trying to believe in whole religion, I knew my dad was being truthful when he referred to it.

When I was really little, the JW father of my mom's friend set a church on fire. But I think he was just crazy and delusional.

Shoshana

6

So 'love' is the identifying mark of 'true' christians? Well then..........

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

jw
friends

........................dubs are not true christians.

they use that point to prove they are and it's that very point that proves they are not!.

i was doing a bit of house work this morning when the phone rang.

La Capra

The lack of love was my primary reason for leaving in 1987. And since I knew the doctrine was a total crock, staying in for the "moral support" was a losing proposition. If I was going to spit out a bunch of ridiculous drivel, I figured I might as well enjoy it. But I was lucky. When I left, my mom amd her step-sister were the only other baptized JWs in our immediate family, so I wasn't giving up familial love (my mom didn't know what that meant back then anyway).

Shoshana

1

WTBTS goes for the big so what.

by La Capra in

on september 15, the church will make its motion for a dismissal-basically admitting all the allegations of the four plaintiffs, but alleging that even if they were all true, they did not do anything that would entitle the plaintiffs to any kind of relief.

what i think is "of note" and which distinguishes this from other cases is that glew babysat kids "in an official position" while their parents went out in service.

my mom left me with "witness" sitters a few times while she did the auxiliary thing.

La Capra

On September 15, the church will make its motion for a dismissal-basically admitting all the allegations of the four plaintiffs, but alleging that even if they were all true, they did not do anything that would entitle the plaintiffs to any kind of relief. What I think is "of note" and which distinguishes this from other cases is that Glew babysat kids "in an official position" while their parents went out in service. My mom left me with "witness" sitters a few times while she did the auxiliary thing. It could have been me.

I don't know about my linking skills, but if necessary one of those adorable mod types can fix the link, or y'all can cut and paste.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/pmextra/#link3

I am going to determine what time the hearing is scheduled, and will go if I don't have to abandon my students to do it. I am curious to hear these arguments, and it is going to be happening in a building I already frequent.

First day of school today...off to change the world, one linear equation at a time....

Shoshana

Edited to add "hey the link linked!"

13

New Case: good for WBTS

by La Capra in

in reviewing the "new news" out of the courts this morning, i came across this case: doe v. corp. of president of church of jesus christ of latter day saints: 2004 wl 1846365 utah app.,2004.

aug. 19, 2004. the church won, the basic premise was that the church owed no duty to the children to warn of a "high priest's" past sexual abuse activities.

"church did not have special relationship with church "high priest" giving rise to duty to warn of his alleged sexual abuse; "high priest" was not church agent, employee, or member of clergy, and abuse did not occur on church property or during church-sponsored activity.".

La Capra

In reviewing the "new news" out of the courts this morning, I came across this case: Doe v. Corp. of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: 2004 WL 1846365 Utah App.,2004. Aug. 19, 2004. The church won, the basic premise was that the church owed no duty to the children to warn of a "high priest's" past sexual abuse activities.

"Church did not have special relationship with church "high priest" giving rise to duty to warn of his alleged sexual abuse; "high priest" was not church agent, employee, or member of clergy, and abuse did not occur on church property or during church-sponsored activity."

"Church did not have special relationship with victims of alleged sexual abuse giving rise to duty to warn; victims were not in church's custody."

Here is the background:

For many years, Jane and her son John were members of the Church and regularly attended a ward in the Salt Lake Holladay Stake. George Tilson was also a member of the Church, and held the positions of "High Priest" and scout leader within the Church. Beginning in 1966 and continuing through 2002, COP [Corporation of the President; ie. "Church"] received several complaints from its members that Tilson was sexually abusing children within his ward.However, COP not only failed to do anything in response to these complaints, it actively concealed Tilson's sexual abuse from its members and secular authorities. Moreover, COP allowed Tilson to continue to hold the positions of High Priest and scout leader. Two of Tilson's victims during the time period that he was alleged to have engaged in child sexual abuse were Jane and John. In the summer of 1976, Tilson enticed Jane, who was then thirteen years old, into his home where he fondled her under her clothing. Tilson sexually abused John, Jane's son, some time between 1993 and 1996 when John was approximately five years old. John's abuse also occurred in Tilson's home after Tilson lured him away from a neighbor's yard where he was playing. In the fall of 2001, Jane learned of news reports that led her to believe that COP had prior knowledge of Tilson's propensities to sexually abuse children. Jane's subsequent investigation of these reports ultimately prompted her to file a complaint in June of 2002 against Tilson, alleging that he had sexually abused Jane and John, and against COP, alleging negligence, breach of fiduciary duty, and intentional infliction of emotional distress arising out of Tilson's alleged sexual abuse.

Some of the analysis:

"Plaintiffs have not alleged any facts demonstrating that COP had custody and control over Tilson at the time he sexually abused Plaintiffs. For example, Plaintiffs do not allege that Tilson was a COP agent or employee, or that he was a member of COP's clergy. Nor do they allege that the abuse occurred on COP property, during a COP sponsored activity, or in connection with Tilson's position as a High Priest or scout leader. Although Plaintiffs do allege that "COP had the power to remove Tilson as a High Priest, and even had the power to excommunicate him from the church," these facts alone are insufficient to establish that COP had custody and control over Tilson. Therefore, we conclude that no special relationship existed between COP and Tilson at the time Plaintiffs were sexually abused that would give rise to a duty on COP's part to warn Plaintiffs about Tilson."

The very fact that the church provided faith based adivce to the children (and their parents/guardians) did not create the duty to warn/protect. Without establishing there was a duty to warn its parishioners, congregants, etc., the plaintiff would not be able to make the prima facie case for negligence. This case was dismissed in "summary judgment" (meaning the plaintiff's failed to make any sort of claim that would grant them relief in a court of law.) This was not a Supreme Court case, so it may not be finished yet.

But, basically, what the court says, is, even though the Church may have had a disciplinary system in place to "excommunicate" the priest in order to protect other chruch memebers, the church could not control the priest's conduct when he was not in their custody (and the victims were not). Because it was outside the Church's realm or control, the church had no duty to warn and protect.

Keep in mind that ths case is out of Utah, and that this case was decided in favor of the Mormon Chruch. It would not be out of the realm of possibility that there is a bias for the church in the Utah Courts. In my pitiful legal experience, I would bet that this one isn't finished yet. I think there is a duty here (particularly if the high priest was "using" his title to gain trust with his victims and the Church knew it...).

However, this case is absolutely on point with what occurs in many of the WTBS cases of abuse. (Church member/leader, ability to excommunitcate, ability to warn, not happening on chruch property, or during church activity...) So, if it moves past the Utah courts in appeals, then it will set the precedent for the WTBTS cases.

And finally, another obvious example that WTBTS is just like the other churches...

Shoshana

8

Anyone here in the east bay

by nb-dfed in

anyone here in the east bay/sf area who can reccomend a good therapist?

looking for a therapist that works well with us ex-dubbies.

thanks.

La Capra

You have a private message.

76

food at the assembly

by LukeN in

remember a few years ago 97 and down even more there use to be food at the assemblys(not the big rent-astadium ones).

i remember back then probally being 5,6,7,8 they use to give out food like hots hamburgers chips and so.

any idea why there isnt anymore?

La Capra

I used to despise the ticket system. I always saw it as a way to get the convetion goers to spend more money on food than they otherwise would have if they had been paying cash. Those tickets were like play money, and everyone was "encouraged" to buy them through the local congregation (I think to see where the money was). Once you bought them, if you didn't use them you could not get a refund. If people bought too many tickets, they were stuck with them and could not use them at next year's convention, because they were a different color every year.

I had long since DAed before the "donation" system went into effect, either for the food or the literature. But I did used to volunteer at the food stands at the Cow Palace (check out all the cute guys-look for "repeat cusotmers"). Until they took me off the "front counter." There were a couple of reasons, but the leading force in being relegated to a gopher had to do with my ability to add up the totals as the items were being requested. It was all about patterns-the folks would tend to state their requests in a similar order, and usually in similar pairings (if someone requested 3 "entrees", I could instantly add 9 tickets for three sodas, before they were ordered). Those totals were on easy recall for me. I was faster than the MSs and Elders that would flank me. From time to time, I could also spit out totals for their "customers" too. These "grown men" could not handle that some snotty female child could do her sums faster whilst also doing theirs, so I eventually was disallowed from using my God-given talent of recognizing patterns, and taken off the counter. I rarely stood up for myself, this was not one of those rare times that I did.

This was before I left. This had nothing to do with my leaving, but this had a lot to do with my becoming a math teacher.

26

Would you have accepted THIS response from the Watchtower. Re: U.N

by integ in

dear brothers,

it has been brought to our attention that certain brothers have had questions regarding the societies' membership as a non governmental organization with the united nations from 1991-2001. rest assured that we are no longer members, having removed ourselves from this organization over 3 years ago.

it was only in our undaunted zeal to proclaim the good news to "all nations" (as was jesus' admonition), in these critical last days, that the faithful slave class approved membership as an ngo.

La Capra

There is a very logical explanation about why the WTBTS will never admit to a mistake, and ask for forgiveness from its followers. That reason is the whole disfellowshipping /disassociation/shunning doctrine that is part and parcel to the entire existence of this cult. Here is a section of the "announcement" with a different "error" inserted, and from a follower rather than the leadership.

Dear Elder Body,

It has been brought to my attention that certain brothers have had questions regarding my blood transfusion during surgery after a nearly fatal window-washing accident. Rest assured that I NO LONGER consume blood. It was only in my undaunted zeal to proclaim the good news to "All Nations" (as was Jesus' admonition), in these critical last days, that I allowed myself to receive this life saving treatment. It is regrettable that some have been stumbled by this treatment, likening it to desecrating the life force itself. This is NOT THE CASE! Being as I am, an imperfect human, I may have made an error in my thinking on the matter. It was my only hope that this life saving medical treatment might show the nations, and their governments, that Jehovahs Organization is not a harmful 'cult' as false media reports have caused some to believe, but that we are a loving organization with only positive motives. Again, in my zealousness to further the Kingdom preaching work I mistakenly had hoped to extend my life so that I could continue our life saving work. We do well to remember that Jesus was the only perfect person to walk the earth, and as well meaning as we may have been in this matter to expand the work He commissioned, we are confident that our merciful God Jehovah, who sees "all things', would take note of our intentions, and forgive us our "mistakes". It is my hope that this will satisfy any further inquiries into this matter, and that we may move forward in the ministry in glorious praise to our Heavenly Father.

Your Brother,

This is the kind of thing that could easily be used against them in a way that would cause them to lose all control over their masses. It is the real reason they will go so far as to admit that that humans are imperfect and make mistakes, but never as far as admitting an actual mistake.

Shoshana

12

Text from Ex, she has met some nice JW's and needs some advice. (must read)

by AlanB in

i had a text message from an ex last week, she wanted to meet to discuss some jw's she had met that were really nice people but wanted some advice.

so the other night i drove over to a town in the north west of england to meet her and a really bizarre story unfolded.

we shall call our heroine julie who has recently moved into a new house along with her two children who we shall call janet and john, both children are in their early teens, julie is mid 30's.

La Capra

From Bill's perspective two studies have already been started!!!!! All the time the B's spend with the J's is now being counted on a time card. This is one additional fact of which Julie should be made aware. To a certain extent, she is just a number to the B's, and since Ben has a crush, the time he counts on her "sort of" legitimizes his feelings. If they were really above board about it they would be sending over a "nice pioneer sister" or "mature elder's wife" and avoiding conversations with Julie entirely. Instead they turn the business (really, how often do people get their windows cleaned in Britain-here in California it's once or twice a year!) relationship into a quasi-social (informal -brainwashing) one to Julie and a quasi-spiritual one for them (let the rationalizations and compartmentalizations begin). If it weren't their own business they would have been sacked.

Shoshana